tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17582952.post113333124174270981..comments2023-06-14T09:59:17.258-04:00Comments on A Thinking Man's Thoughts: The Best and the Brightest - Handling QuestionsFrank Sansonehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09827320724505906703noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17582952.post-1134663246610790712005-12-15T11:14:00.000-05:002005-12-15T11:14:00.000-05:00Pastor Tetreau,(If it is indeed you - and since I ...Pastor Tetreau,<BR/><BR/>(If it is indeed you - and since I did not find any spelling errors in the last post, it makes it highly suspect that someone is posting under Pastor Tetreau's name :))<BR/><BR/>You know Dr. McCune much better than I do, obviously, (as I said, I had not heard of him until SI and had not actually heard him speak until the ACCC Convention)so I will grant you that he does not leave nor intend to leave any wiggle room in this statement. Clearly he believes (and I do not disagree to much of a degree, although I would grant some room for exceptions) that the choice of a non-separatist seminary for an M. Div. is a departure from Fundamentalism. <BR/><BR/>My point/question that I tried to address in my last comment was that if/since this is the case, he must be making that decision on issues other than stictly separation, since he did leave open the possibility of pursuing advanced (e.g. Ph. D.) work at non-separatist institutions. Logically (at least it seems to me) if one is to say that it is always a violation of separation to attend a non-separatist school for an M. Div. then it follows it would be a violation of separation to attend that same school for any reason. <BR/><BR/>My belief, then, is that his "writing the guy off" is not based solely on the lack of separation in the institution of choice, but rather by something else (for instance, perhaps he feels that for someone to choose a non-separatist seminary when there are plenty of good Fundamental seminaries is an indication of the direction the individual is trying to go). <BR/><BR/>I hope that makes sense. Please help me see what I am missing if I am missing something (especially since you know him).Frank Sansonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09827320724505906703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17582952.post-1133821902056099022005-12-05T17:31:00.000-05:002005-12-05T17:31:00.000-05:00Thanks for the interaction, guys. I will not presu...Thanks for the interaction, guys. I will not presume to speak for anyone else, but I think there is a difference between someone "leaving Fundamentalism" to go to SBTS and someone who is maintaining his Fundamentalist stance and attending a school with his eyes open (as you described your situation, paleo).Mark Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03199461295453129653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17582952.post-1133813573757014662005-12-05T15:12:00.000-05:002005-12-05T15:12:00.000-05:00Michael,Sorry this set here for awhile. I did not...Michael,<BR/><BR/>Sorry this set here for awhile. I did not really notice what was said here perviously. <BR/><BR/>I, of course, can't speak for McCune regarding this, but I don't think that you are correct in your representation of his reasoning behind the statement that he made that Paleo quotes. <BR/><BR/>I don't believe McCune's objection to the attending of a non-fundamentalist seminary is that doing so is a violation of the principle of separation, otherwise he would not in the same context say that it is okay in doing so for other degrees.<BR/><BR/>I believe that he is probably indicating that someone who makes the choice to attend a non-separatist seminary when there are perfectly good Fundamental seminaries is revealing a mind-set that is problematic. <BR/><BR/>Maybe Mark (or Dr. McCune?) could comment on that, but I don't think he would base his reasoning in this area on the principle of separation - at least not in the sense that going to the schools is itself a violation of the principle of separation.Frank Sansonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09827320724505906703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17582952.post-1133644321206808712005-12-03T16:12:00.000-05:002005-12-03T16:12:00.000-05:00I hadn't seen some of the discussion here until ju...I hadn't seen some of the discussion here until just now, so I don't have as much to add. I do think McCune represents most of fundamentalism when he explains his view of non-fundamentalist seminaries. In my understanding the foundational premise of that view is that attending a non-fundamental seminary is wrong because it is a violation of the principles of separation. <BR/><BR/>McCune anticipates the natural objection. What about the professors in fundamentalist seminaries (including McCune's DBTS) that have degrees from non-fundamentalist seminaries? Thus, he distinguishes between entry-level and advanced degrees. The problem is that if attending a non-fundamental seminary is wrong, it is wrong at any academic level.<BR/><BR/>I feel that we have confused the younger generation (and ourselves) by these sorts of distinctions. If we are going to separate from a person we must be willing to call that person a disobedient brother or false teacher. <BR/><BR/>If I have separated from a person on these grounds, it would be very unlikely that I would use his textbooks in a class I taught or listen to him preach on the radio. Yet, fundamentalists often do this. We say that someone isn't a fundamentalist and should be separated from. Then we recommend his resources on counseling, missions, theology, etc. Students don't understand why we would recommend someone as the best Christian thinker in a given realm, but then tell them they can't go hear him preach when he is in town.<BR/><BR/>I think the realization of this problem is setting in. Perhaps McCune is headed towards a clearer articulation of the idea. Pastor Sansone, your comments also seem to realize this consideration. Perhaps most profitably, Dr. Bauder has articulated the concept of levels of cooperation to address this difficulty. I hope that we can do a better job of communicating who we are separating from as opposed to who we have limited cooperation with.<BR/><BR/>Grace and peace.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17582952.post-1133534896837581762005-12-02T09:48:00.000-05:002005-12-02T09:48:00.000-05:00Thanks, guys.My take on McCune's comments is based...Thanks, guys.<BR/><BR/>My take on McCune's comments is based on his use of the term "any student." That didn't seem to leave much wiggle room. Mark, I understand your distinctions, but I think McCune is saying that anyone who goes to a non-fundamentalist seminary out of a fundamentalist institution is making a deliberate break with fundamentalism. I don't see where he is allowing for legitimate exceptions. Maybe that's your point. I don't think it's legitimate, but maybe that's because I see my own situation as one that proves even by Frank's and your criteria that a blanket "writing off" of the informed is inappropriate.<BR/><BR/>I don't know that there is any purpose in reviewing the details, but suffice it to say that when I enrolled at Southeastern Seminary I was not uninformed or lacking advice from those in a position to provide fundamentalistic spiritual leadership to me (fundamentalist pastor, fundamentalist profs, fundamentalists employers, etc.). Someone, I don't remember whether it was one of these, did suggest that attending SEBTS might cause me to be written off. My thinking was and is that anyone who would look at my reasoning for attending SEBTS and write me off is not someone with whom I would want to be involved in ministry. I see it as a "canary in a coal mine" scenario. If folks react negatively to me attending SEBTS, that will be a healthy indicator to both of us that a ministry relationship between us would not be desirable. So if McCune's perspective does apply to me, I'm not going to be shedding any tears. It's what I asked for.<BR/><BR/>By the way, I don't want to make it sound like I think going to a non-fundamentalist seminary is wrong. I briefly considered Masters and Southern before choosing Central in Minneapolis (geographical factors eventually drove me to SEBTS). I know a very few other guys who decided to go to Masters, Southern, or Southeastern, and I haven't written them off. To be honest, I respect their courage. Perhaps McCune has observed guys with chips on their shoulders towards fundamentalism. That's certainly not the spirit of the ones I know.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665765739805841971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17582952.post-1133506080901152012005-12-02T01:48:00.000-05:002005-12-02T01:48:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Frank Sansonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09827320724505906703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17582952.post-1133506063627842742005-12-02T01:47:00.000-05:002005-12-02T01:47:00.000-05:00Mark and Paleo,Sorry it has taken me so long to ju...Mark and Paleo,<BR/><BR/>Sorry it has taken me so long to jump back in here. We are in the process of trying to buy some property so that our church can have its own building and I have been pre-occupied with that and with the day to day aspects of ministry. <BR/><BR/>Before writing this, I have re-read Michael's comments and my response to Michael's comments, as well as the quote from Dr. McCune that Paleo posted.<BR/><BR/>I will state, first of all, that I said "in my circles" and until this year, I had never heard of Dr. McCune and until October at the ACCC Convention I had never met Dr. McCune.<BR/><BR/>However, I will agree with Paleo that my comments do not agree with what Dr. McCune has said. I would also say, given the choice, I would probably agree with Dr. McCune's comments more than Frank Sansone's comments - after all, what can you expect from that guy :).<BR/><BR/>To be fair to myself, I do want to explain some of my thinking as I responded to that comment. Michael had made a comment about "writing people off" because they went to a non-separatist seminary. While I have serious concerns about a guy going to non-separatist seminaries (as my response notes - clearly, I think), I also thought of situations where guys that I had known went to non-separatist seminaries and did so for specific reasons and did so with the full understanding that they were going to a situation that they differed philosophically with the school that they were going to be attending. In particular, I thought of a couple of types of situations.<BR/><BR/>1. I thought of guys that I knew from BJU who went to non-separatist seminaries yet remained committed Fundamentalists. As I indicated in my response, a lot of the view of this was dependent upon the reasoning for the choice to go to the non-separatist seminary. For instance, if you were interested in being a chaplain, your seminary training needed to be at an accredited seminary and that generally meant you were going to a non-separatist seminary. (This would have been in the late 1980s - early 1990s. I am not sure if DBTS or Calvary were accredited then or not, but a lot of us had not heard very much of them back then if they were.)<BR/><BR/>2. I thought of guys like Dr. Bob, Jr. and Pastor Ashbrook who went to non-Fundamental institutions. <BR/><BR/>However, upon re-reading the comments, Michael did specifically mention "Pastors" (not "Chaplains") as opposed to those interested in education. So, while I may be able to conceive of some situations where a person would not be "written off" for attending a non-separatist seminary, I will agree that those situations are so rare in this day and age as to make them practically non-existent. <BR/><BR/>I hope this clears the air.Frank Sansonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09827320724505906703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17582952.post-1133490352580134022005-12-01T21:25:00.000-05:002005-12-01T21:25:00.000-05:00I guess I was thinking that the difference between...I guess I was thinking that the difference between the two groups is knowledge vs. ignorance. Maybe I misread something.<BR/><BR/>I have no doubt that some have made uninformed or ill-informed decisions that they may have regretted later. Perhaps they have made a decision that seems out of character with their past patterns. To those, we might adopt a "wait-and-see" approach. <BR/><BR/>The group that McCune is describing made a deliberate choice to break with Fundamentalism. There is no need for "wait-and-see"; The waiting is over.<BR/><BR/>Maybe Frank can help us: are you describing young men, who grew up in Fundamentalism and went to a Fundamentalist Bible college, and then decided to go to SBTS (against the advice of their pastors, Bible teachers, college profs, etc.) or something else?Mark Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03199461295453129653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17582952.post-1133384645907041202005-11-30T16:04:00.000-05:002005-11-30T16:04:00.000-05:00Well, I would certainly encourage everyone to list...Well, I would certainly encourage everyone to listen to the full context. It was quite informative.<BR/><BR/>Honestly, though, I don't know how to interact with you on this one, Mark. I'm sure I'm missing something, but I don't see where you are addressing the distinction between Sansone and McCune. I think they are talking about the same group of people but assessing them in a different way.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665765739805841971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17582952.post-1133370121450800622005-11-30T12:02:00.000-05:002005-11-30T12:02:00.000-05:00paleoevangelical, McCune did make a distinction be...paleoevangelical, McCune did make a distinction between an entry-level degree and an advanced degree (hence the "goes out from a university" line). The context of this sentence may be helpful in understanding its intent, since this is one line snipped out of several paragraphs of explanation.<BR/><BR/>He is referring to those who have turned their backs on good Fundamentalist seminaries, and in so doing, on Fundamentalism. I could list off several guys with whom I went to college who headed to SBTS with the clear intent of leaving Fundamentalism.Mark Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03199461295453129653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17582952.post-1133363704583760892005-11-30T10:15:00.000-05:002005-11-30T10:15:00.000-05:00Frank Sansone:"Regarding the situation with guys b...<B>Frank Sansone:</B><BR/>"Regarding the situation with guys being 'written off' for going to non-Fundamentalist seminaries, maybe it is just the circles that I have been involved with, but I don't agree that a person is generally 'written off' in this situation, but I do agree that this person is usually (at least in the minds of many) moved into a 'watch and see' category."<BR/><BR/><B>Rolland McCune at the ACCC Panel Discussion:</B><BR/>"As far as I'm concerned, any student that goes out from a university to Southern Seminary in Louisville has just kissed Fundamentalism goodbye. And they'll never make it back into our ranks, at least I would never touch such a person at all for a position in the seminary nor for the pastorate of a local church."Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665765739805841971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17582952.post-1133355032554958912005-11-30T07:50:00.000-05:002005-11-30T07:50:00.000-05:00Exactly. I have faced this in my limited years of ...Exactly. I have faced this in my limited years of experience. When someone comes to me asking for an explanation, I am willing to give it. But when someone already has an agenda, there is little point in addressing the question.<BR/><BR/>I'm sure this is true in fundamental churches as well. Some stay because (1) they have been there so long, (2) they like the preaching, or (3) can't find anything better. Unfortunately, their remaining in the church doesn't make sense as they are not interested in the biblical principles on which it was built.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01981094652064715663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17582952.post-1133334209254946642005-11-30T02:03:00.000-05:002005-11-30T02:03:00.000-05:00Hi again FrankI think you have summed up my views ...Hi again Frank<BR/><BR/>I think you have summed up my views exactly. I have no problem with those who are truly searching out the answers and trying to grow in understanding. I do have a problem with those who are constantly criticising and talking about all the so-called problems in fundamentalism. I especially have a problem when these men come from fundamentalist homes and churches and seem to be spitting on their heritage.<BR/><BR/>I grew up in evangelicalism. I did not want to go to the schools of my evangelical denomination because of their loose moral standards and sloppy doctrine. I understood why when I was exposed to fundamentalist teaching.<BR/><BR/>I do think that many of us in fundamentalism have assumed that our young people will "get it" by osmosis or something. The fact that a young person grows up in a fundamentalist church should mean that they are exposed to solid teaching about separation and all the other essential doctrines. Unfortunately we appear to have fallen down here. It is like the third generation in Judges ... there are still battles to be fought, but the third generation didn't get why they were fighting.<BR/><BR/>So when I say, "walk the plank", I mean that I am not inclined to be associated with people loudly trying to tear down what little of a fundamentalist movement we have left. If someone is planning to leave, then just leave. They are not helping by being a complainer in the midst.<BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/>Don Johnson<BR/>Jer 33.3Don Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03332212749734904541noreply@blogger.com